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The Godscare DEBATE by Val
From the very start of this site, someone once in a while would disagree with something here. At first we knew when we created the site there would be fundamentalist Christians who would just flat out disagree with anything that "looked" worldly to them. And the idea of a Christian gothic site? Forget it! No way it can pass for Christian. You can't please everyone we learned quickly. The first guy to complain was back in 2001 when we created the tour through Heaven and Hell. We had a complaint about "using Hell" as a "scare tactic" to bring people to decision about Christ and Christianity. But before we get into that, Over the course I have entered into debate about Godscare.net to help. Not to debate, but to help, because I really believe what we are doing here is beneficial to certain area's of our people planet. Here is a debate over this site that I had on another evangelical site run by a pastor friend of mine Steve Sanchez. |
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Chad
Says: October 23rd, 2008 at 6:25 pm I am surprised that you are backing this kind of site. This Godscare site looks like something your friends at ALittleLeaven would be exposing as evil. A little too dark for me. My Saviour is brighter that the darkness I have seen on that site.
Steve Sanchez Says:
Chad, Remember, I wrote: “Admittedly, it’s not for everyone, but you do get a pretty cool tour of Hell!” I think that there are many ways to reach people with the Gospel. Val himself is Goth, that’s why he has a heart for these lost souls.
Val
Scott Says: Hey Chad, you are right bro. But to someone in utter darkness, you can dim the light a little without sin. And my advice to you is to stay away from all evil doers if you think they are evil. Don’t lower the bar if you think that’s the case. Just keep in mind however that God became a man, without sin, in order to win mankind back to Him. It doesn't matter if you wear a three piece suit to church with your hair cookie cut perfect, if your heart is far from Him, and the reverse also is true. Spiked hair is not bad fruit. Think of this: in order to win acceptance of a culture it helps to adapt as far as possible without breaking the commandments. You don’t have to agree with this because it’s not for you, but music and dress are adaptable in degree’s. And the gospel light is seen through the Word no matter where it is preached. We have had allot of testimonies of FIRST TIME salvations, and some of them have posted. Goth kids are hanging out on a site brimming with the gospel! If you knew of their other goth site hang out choices I think you might thank God for Godscare. But as stated, the site is not for Christians who have never been exposed to goth, to now go out and become gothic. No, it is an outreach to an already spiritually dead gothic community. I’m actually surprised Steve posted it myself. lol.
Chad
Says: I used to be a drummer in a metal band. Our band was not christian. I was involved in drugs and alcohol and the life that the secular metal band brings. Anyone who knows anything about metal music knows that it takes lots of agression and anger to pull it off effectively. Metal drumming is not an easy task unless you let anger play through you. I mean just look at these guys faces when they are playing. When I got saved Jesus showed my spirit that this anger and agression wasn’t from Him. I quit my band and started playing Christian metal. I soon realized that there was not much difference between the two. That anger was still in our music. How can Jesus’ love be shown through anger? I had to change my life (REPENT). As soon as I turned from that life, my music style changed. I started listening to music that glorified God. Lets not try to sneek Jesus through the back door when they should be inviting Him through the front door. Lucifer was a created angel in heaven that was made to create music. Music was Lucifers job. Music flowed from his being. When Lucifer got kicked out of heaven do you think his job changed? Do you think his gifts and abilities changed? He is still a musical created being. How important do you think music is to Satan? If satan can convince christians that all music is made from God and is here for our pleasure, don’t you think he would? The devil is a liar ,thief and murderer. My posts here is only a warning to the MANY here who defend the world that is taking over our youth and churches. My concern here is that Goth kids will think its ok to stay the way they are and just add Jesus to their evil dark lives, when Jesus calls for 100% change. Please be careful…..<
Sarah Says: Val, I admire your heart to reach the kind of people you were once immersed in. I went back to look at the sight and I just couldn’t help but long for light. Maybe because I haven’t been in the Goth culture and this sight maybe be “lighter” than the real Goth (or “diet Goth”=), but it still seems to glorify death and the satanic culture. Thank you for your boldness in preaching the gospel. Sarah
Ray
St Pierre Says: Interesting, I see what Chad
says, and what Val says, I don’t think Val
wants us to become Goth! But that they are
looking for something and Chad doesn’t want
Christians to be wrapped Both of you keep
doing what God would have God bless you both!
Val
Scott Says: The wages of sin is death. But death in and of itself is just stepping through a door to God and the Judgment. God says the death of His saints is “precious” to Him. “Death” as a subject can be used effectively to teach the Word of God to sinners. As far as to glorify the satanic culture… what culture is that exactly? Sin? As long as there is no sin [breaking of God's Commandments] in the site, it is not satanic. Satanism is a philosophy that teaches the breaking of God’s Laws. If we turned all the pages white, allowed only Christians to join, put on classical music, and had only pictures of flowers and happy people smiling, but taught people that sex without marriage is good, or lying daily can be healthy, or taught that God does not exist.., would that be a Christian site? Truth is that if there was a site like that, Christians may feel right at home there, and over time read enough garbage to pollute their faith beyond repair. Thank you Sarah
Chad
Says: Val- thats a little extreme isn’t it? Its funny how when someone disagrees with you, you jump to the opposite extreme. All I’m saying is there are 2 extremes and your site swayes closer to darkness than light. You are putting yourself in the same category as XXXChurch. Once a porn addict, now a porn evangelist. Lets take Christ out of christian and refer to us as Xians etc.. Way of the master is the first to call people false converts for no fruit, yet you call Alice Copper, and many like him, true converts. There is no fruit from these guys when they are still singing the evil songs they have always sang. Have you seen the latest video from Brian “Head” Welch? Where is the glory for Christ? All it does is glorify drugs and sex. I understand that people need Christ. My problem is that I have seen no call for change on your site. All I see is add Jesus to your Gothness. No Change, No Repentance, No Salvation. You are preaching the same message of the modern Gospel. Come as you are and stay that way. Sorry if that hurts your fellings but thats the Gospel. Turning and changing, not keeping my dark life and adding Jesus to it. Please Brother listen to the voice of your conscience. Thanks for listening to my view and bless you.
Sarah Says: Val, Thank you for discussing this. It’s really made me think and examine my own life. I hope it does the same for you and the others who read. In Christ,
Val
Scott Says: Chad said, “I have seen no call for change on your site. All I see is add Jesus to your Gothness. No Change, No Repentance, No Salvation.” Chad, God bless you. Your just not reading or looking around enough. There are SEVERAL calls to repentance on many pages, and there is no sin taught in the site at all. Truth is we have “trimmed” allot off the site to appeal to Christians. No links to the XXXChurch for example. All the bands playing in the site are Christian bands with Christian lyrics. It’s not the sounds, but the words that make the difference in the mind and heart. You don’t like the sounds? It’s not for you, but for others who do. As for Brian Welch [the X lead guitarist for Korn who recently gave up the band to follow Christ], he has a testimony that is reaching hundreds of thousands of the kids that are deep in sin because of Korns message. A satanic and sinful band like Korn lost the founding member to Jesus Christ! He was a millionaire by way when he quit the band, and quitting the band cost him millions per year. Money he will never see again. I saw the video you mentioned and disagreed as well with his video idea. We will not feature his video. He went further than he should in showing the world that sin leads to death, when he showed actual sins being committed in his video. His message is repentance, not sin, and that’s the point. The last words of the song in the video are, “come on! Get up, lets change!” And his cd is brimming with calls to repentance. But I do agree with you. This is why we do not go that far at Godscare.net. These rock stars that are now Christian are in the lime light and need our prayers. All eye’s are upon them and they are not being quiet about Jesus coming into their lives. It is a POWERFUL testimony when a former famous satanist, pagan, atheist, etc. CHANGES his worldview for God and tells the world about it. In this war for souls with time running out faster than yesterday we should praise God for amazing testimonies. Oh, and also remember to pray for them to be as perfect as we think we are. Hi Sarah. The site really is not a call to leave any “culture”, but the sin that’s in the culture. Starting with the sin of rejecting Jesus Christ. It’s just a matter of not stereo-typing the sound of music and dress style to sins. As far as imitating goes, many goths who became Christian know they are not imitating, no more than an Indian who comes to Christ thinks he is imitating when he comes to a pow-wow in full dress and does a dance. The point is he is dancing and dressing for a new cause, and he knows it. Thank you both. -Val
Sarah Says: I guess this may just be a matter of opinion, but Scripture says to avoid all appearance of evil. Take this as an example… As a single woman, I am living with another single man who is the same age. We are not fornicating, but it is a matter of convenience. Now, before you judge me, I am not doing anything wrong morally. THis is normal in my culture to do this. As a single female, I want to show other Christians that they can live this way and not sin, and even win people to Christ (I could change guys every week… witness to them.. What a testimony that would be!) Val, am I wrong? Sarah
Val
Scott Says: Yeah Sarah, your analogy deals with a specific sin of fornication, but listening to hard music and wearing dark clothing styles deals with no specific sin at all. It may or may not deal with a rebellion of a sort, but rebellion in and of itself is re-directional. A goth may be in complete rebellion against sin, satan and the world, and modern world Christians wouldn’t have a clue. They judge by outward appearance when the Bible says not to judge outward appearance. When the Bible says to avoid all appearance of evil it is not talking about clothes and music styles, but about breaking God’s Laws. The Bible says, “Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light,” II Corinthians 11:14. Conclusion.., your appearance does not make you any more or less holy than you already are, because satan often dresses in light and plays beautiful happy music. Mafia hit men wear suits and happy faces. Anyway, you get the picture. I know you think gothism is a sinful culture. I agree, there is sin in every music culture, some more than others, and we are called not to conform to this world. Point is, the conforming part is speaking of doing things that break God’s Laws. Do not conform! It’s not what we look like, but what we do. Jesus said, “be wise as serpents, but harmless as doves.” I don’t want my little 8 year old girl to dress gothic and listen to Marilyn Manson, so I parent her. But the fact is I see gothic kids her age all the time, and if I get the chance I give them a Godscare sticker. They are entrenched in darkness [the lies of satan about God] through evil lyrics in music, and we are there to tell them it not about their styles, but about their hearts with God.
Sarah Says: Yes (I know, it’s
me again… lol =). I think appearances do say something about our hearts and what we like, or perhaps our intentions, though. For instance, no matter how much I love my ski mask, I shouldn’t ever wear it into a bank. My heart is right, but my appearance may say something else to the bank teller, and make them doubt my intentions. Okay dorkey illustrations. =) Hey… again.. thanks Val for taking time to post responses. I don’t want to keep harping on my soap box, so I will just agree to disagree and let others bang it out. Keep fighting the good fight! In Christ, Sister Sarah (FYI.. I don’t own a ski mask)
Chad
Says: I have a worker that is goth that I have been trying to help him for quite some time now. I mentioned to him about your christian goth site. He interrupted me and said ” Thats an oxymoron there is no such thing as a christian goth.” This is from the mouth of a goth kid. I agree with Sarah our appearance should reflect Christ. The white face represents the paleness of death. The piercings and tatoos etc. are worldly rituals. If Jesus were alive walking the earth today would he look goth? Would he dress goth to reach them? Would he go out and get sleeved out in tatoos to reach those who have tatoos? Looking like you are involved in witchcraft is a sin. Representing the dead or evil culture is sin. There are many other sins besides the ten commandments. Being friends and imitating the world is sinful. Why did you stop dressing goth Val? Why don’t you dress goth at your next open air preaching session? You might be able to reach the goth kids in the crowd. Do you think Steve or Ray Comfort would allow you to dress in full goth apparell at your next street witnessing outing? I think not. Why? Because its wrong and not very Christ- like. Well I guess I’m with Sarah, enough beating a dead horse. Later….<
Val
Scott Says: This Halloween night on a block that had dozens of houses with scary decorations, fog machines, monsters, and everything else, there was one house that had an angel in the front yard with it’s foot on a devils neck. The house also had crosses and gospel signs about God and Jesus. Someone might argue that is an oxymoron house, to do something like that for trick or treater kids to see. The Christian Halloween house. Oxymoron? I thought it was cool. I’ll bet they were even passing out tracts with the candy to the kids. Who knows. Your goth friend equates goth with sin and evil like you do. But unlike you, he is a perfect candidate for Godscare.net, even if he takes a tour of Hell and laughs at it, a seed is sown. He may even stick around because of the bands and other goths and end up reading articles. The Commandments along with the warning of Hell make the good news of Christ good news indeed. He may have a change of heart and pray. You said, “our appearance should reflect Christ.” I agree. I don’t have enough will to grow long hair and a beard and wear sandals all year, but I agree. Our “appearance” differs in cultures don’t you think? In certain nations like India or Sudan, if you go there as a missionary dressed in Calvin Kline from head to foot and do not speak their language or relate to their music, etc. You may do ok, Lord willing. But it is much advisable to dress as they do and speak their language if you can. In the USA, dress Calvin Kline and have one ear pierced and preach away! To answer your question, “Why did you stop dressing goth Val?” When and if I go to events that are goth, I will dress to fit where I am. To be in the world, but not of it means you are always on a mission. Steve has seen me “gothed out” before, and Ray would probably encourage me because he’s abit radical in method himself in reaching the lost, but as I said, I dress to fit where I am. Not looking to impress anyone. You also said, “Looking like you are involved in witchcraft is a sin. Representing the dead or evil culture is sin.” Interesting you say that, because the lead singer of Korn in protest to Brian Welch’s quitting the band for Jesus said this in an interview, “I hate these born again cults, they brainwashed our guitarist”. Point is, Brian Welch hasn’t changed his look or his music style at all, only his message. His message is now, “turn away from sin and drugs and serve Jesus.” He does not represent an evil culture, but Christ to an evil culture. Representing Christ in a dead and evil culture is not a sin, it is a command. Hey Chad, it’s been cool buddy. Listen, don’t give up on your goth friend. He’s not so evil as you think or even he thinks. He’s just been lied to. Just a confused guy who is impressed by darkness and deception. The Light of the Word is so very bright to him, just keep sowing seeds and pray. Blessings,
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